Showing posts with label FAIR. Show all posts
Showing posts with label FAIR. Show all posts

28 July 2009

50 Answers to 50 Mormon Answers to 50 Anti-Mormon Questions (Answers 29-30)


Tower To Truth Question:

29. Since the Word of Wisdom teaches us to abstain from alcohol, why did Paul encourage Timothy to drink wine for the stomach? (1 _Tim. 5:23).

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FAIR Answer:

In Timothy's day, water was often not safe to drink. (Historically, it is interesting that the temperance movement opposing alcohol only took off in the United States once relatively clean water supplies were available to most people—prior to that, alcohol mixed with water was a necessary way of keeping water drinkable.)

The Word of Wisdom was given to modern saints as protection against "the designs of conspiring men in the last days." Certainly we don't have to look far to see such conspiracy against the health of customers at work today in tobacco companies or street drug dealers.

This shows why modern revelation is so important—what was dangerous for us in the modern age (cigarette manufacturers, illicit drugs, alcohol marketing, etc.) may need different advice from God than that given 2000 years ago where dying from dysentery transmitted by contaminated water was a far bigger risk than dying of cirrhosis or stomach cancer.

A related question which Christian critics ought to ask themselves might be, "Since we know now that alcohol—including wine—can cause gastritis, ulcers, or stomach bleeding why did Paul (a prophet!) tell Timothy to use it?"

This is a lot like earlier questions about Joseph Smith or Brigham Young expressing a false, though popular, opinion about scientific matters. Paul isn't any less an apostle because he expressed a false idea about the benefits of alcohol on stomach problems.

To learn more: Wine for the stomach and the Word of Wisdom

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Tower To Truth Quesion:

30. If obeying the Word of Wisdom—which tells us to abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol and tobacco—is important for our exaltation, why did Jesus say that there is nothing that can enter a man to make him defiled (Mark 7:15)?

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FAIR Answer:

The Word of Wisdom says nothing about such substances "defiling us." Members believe it is important to obey the Word of Wisdom because God has commanded us not to do something, and we have promised not to do it. We should keep our promises to God.

The Jews promised not to eat pork, and so it was a sin for them to eat pork—not because pork contaminates or "defiles" them, but because disobedience (that which comes OUT of us, as Jesus said) shows we do not love and trust God.

The underlying principle here is obedience to God, not the Word of Wisdom, per se.

To learn more: Word of Wisdom

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My Responses:

Once again, we see FAIR questioning Paul's qualifications to be an apostle by saying he didn't know what he was writing about. A related question which Christian critics ought to ask themselves might be, "Since we know now that alcohol—including wine—can cause gastritis, ulcers, or stomach bleeding why did Paul (a prophet!) tell Timothy to use it?" Notice the smugness and condescension they use in pointing out that--gasp! a prophet!!--told Timothy to do something that would harm him!! Then, once they have adequately dumbed-down the apostle, they can boost Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to his level, since there was nothing too special about Paul. Hence their assertion, This is a lot like earlier questions about Joseph Smith or Brigham Young expressing a false, though popular, opinion about scientific matters. Paul isn't any less an apostle because he expressed a false idea about the benefits of alcohol on stomach problems.

But, again, FAIR shows that they don't really like to actually read the passage of Scripture in question. They would just as soon just kinda skim over it and give it a cursory glance rather than actually learn what it says. Notice, then what Paul tells Timothy: No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.The word "little" is the Greek όλιγος (oligos). We get words like oligohydramnios (ask your OB/GYN). It refers to a very small amount. And can be related to a measure thus: "of number: multitude, quantity, or size; of time: short; of degree or intensity: light, slight." Paul tells Timothy to drink "a little wine." He's not telling Timothy to chug a fifth of Mogen David™ at every meal. Whether the connotation is a small amount of wine, or if it is weak wine, or if it is for a short time, one thing is for certain: Paul is telling him to "go easy on it."

But, let's go ahead and address the question of thy stomach's sake. The word translated "stomach" is the Greek στόμαχος (stomachos). A nearly exact transliteration into English gives us "stomach." And if we consider that many times the Bible refers to the inward parts using many different references: the heart, the bowels, the kidneys. If you have a Bible that has marginal notes, you may often find that when the OT refers to the heart, the marginal note may say something like "lit., kidneys." So to say that this was Paul giving a prescription strictly this for Timothy's stomach may not be the best rendering. Whatever the ailment was, it was, nonetheless, affecting his "inward parts."

Keeping that in mind, consider that at the time wine was used as a type of analgesic. If you recall, as Jesus hung on the cross, they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not (Mark 15:23). If you have a headache, you take an aspirin. If you are having surgery, they give you Versed and some other drugs to knock you out. So, to wrap this puppy up, Paul was telling Timothy, "If you're sick, don't drink the nasty water that Ephesus is noted for. Drink a little bit of wine, and see if that helps take the edge off the pain."

Now, as far as their claim that The Word of Wisdom was given to modern saints as protection against "the designs of conspiring men in the last days." Certainly we don't have to look far to see such conspiracy against the health of customers at work today in tobacco companies or street drug dealers. I would assume they are also lumping beer and liquor companies in with the tobacco companies and drug dealers. If so, they have thrown Joseph Smith under the bus. After all, a cursory study of Mormon history will show you that Joseph Smith not only authorized and distributed liquor licenses, but also set up a bar in his house and drank wine and beer himself.

So, moving on to "Answer 30." This nonsense about The Jews promised not to eat pork, and so it was a sin for them to eat pork... Uh, wrong! It was not a matter of the Jews "promising" to not eat pork. It was a matter of God commanding them to not eat pork. Leviticus 11:7--"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you."

But here's the thing: The Word of Wisdom says, in the last four verses,
And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones; and shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures; and shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint. And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.
OK, I'm no rocket surgeon, but it seems as though there is more than a little bit of a threat in there.If the "destroying angel...shall not slay" those who keep the WoW--what does that say about those who do not keep it? What's all this about "It's more about obedience to God, not the Word of Wisdom?" Didn't the WoW come from God? And if it did, and one disobeys it, are they not disobeying God? And doesn't that, in fact, mean that whatever goes into the person defiles them?

And what does that say about their view of Scripture, especially Acts 10, where God tells Peter "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common" (Acts 10:10). Again, it all comes down to who you are going to trust more: God, or Joseph Smith.

16 June 2009

50 Answers to 50 Mormon Answers to 50 Anti-Mormon Questions (Answers 25, 26, and 27)



Because of the repetitive nature of the next three questions, I have decided to lump them into one post.

Tower To Truth Question:

25. Why does the Book of Mormon contain extensive, word-for-word quotes from the Bible if the LDS Church is correct in teaching that the Bible has been corrupted?


FAIR Answer:

It would be more correct to say that the Book of Mormon teaches that plain and precious things have been removed from the Bible 1_Ne. 13:28. The vast majority of that which has remained in the Bible is both true and valuable.

Latter-day Saints take two years of every four in Sunday School studying the Bible. They cherish it. They merely refuse to believe that the Bible is all that God has said, or can say. God can speak whenever He wishes.

To learn more: Bible basics

For extensive evidence that the Bible both underwent change and deletions in the very early years, see here.

To learn more: Biblical completeness

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Tower To Truth Question:

26. Why do the Bible verses quoted in the Book of Mormon contain the italicized words from the King James Version that were added into the KJV text by the translators in the 16th and 17th centuries?

FAIR Answer:

The italics do indeed identify words added by the translators. They were "added" because they were necessary words for making sense of the translation: in Hebrew and Greek the words are sometimes implied, but necessary for English to make sense. (Italics can mislead us, however, in suggesting that there is such a thing as a word-for-word translation without interpretation, save for the italics.)

Thus, in some cases the italic words are necessary, and Joseph or another translator would have had to put them in. In other cases, Joseph removed the italic words. (It's not clear that Joseph even owned a Bible during the Book of Mormon translation era, much less that he knew what the italics meant.)

This is really a question about why the Book of Mormon text is often very close (or, in some cases, identical to) the King James Version. If Joseph was trying to forge a book (as the critics claim) then why did he quote from the Bible, the one book his readers would be sure to know?

To learn more: Joseph Smith Translation and the Book of Mormon

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Tower To Truth Question:

27. If the Book of Mormon was engraved on gold plates thousands of years ago, why does it read in perfect 1611 King James Version English?

FAIR Answer:

Because Joseph translated it as King James English.
Why do modern translations of the Greek and Hebrew Bible sound like modern English, even though the texts are hundreds or thousands of years old? Because that's how the translators translated them. It doesn't say anything about what the language is like on the original. (French translators make totally different translations than English translators, but the manuscripts remain the same!)

Do Christians condemn the Bible as an inauthentic record because their translations sound like 21st century English? This question is a good example of how insincere these "questions" from an anti-Mormon ministry are.

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My Response:

OK, we'll take the first one (Answer 25), since it is the simplest. It is simply another example of Mormon double-speak. They are basically saying, "We don't believe the Bible has been corrupted. We just believe some things have been removed."






Doesn't the "fact" (quote-unquote) that things have "been removed" (quote-unquote), by default, render something "corrupt?" The word "corrupt" comes from the Latin (through Middle English) "to break." In fact, according to Merriam-Webster, to "corrupt" means "to alter from the original or correct form or version" (See full entry here). So....if something was "removed," doesn't that, automatically, mean that it has been "altered from its original form?" But, this is, yet again, another example of a Mormon defining things differently than what they really mean. Oh, and, as usual, not a word about which of the "truths, plain and most precious" were removed. Yeah, good luck getting an answer on THAT.

Then there is the link that says, "For extensive evidence that the Bible both underwent change and deletions in the very early years." Of course, that link takes you to another FAIR page where they quote Blake Ostler. Oh, yeah, real unbiased work, there. **rolls eyes** Oh, and as far as trying ot use Vagany against the reliability of Scripture, let's look at the quote from FAIR:
"In AD 178 the secular writer Celsus stated in polemic against the Christians: some of the believers . . . have changed the original text of the Gospels three or four times or even more, with the intention of thus being able to destroy the arguments of their critics.' (quoted in Origen, Contra Celsum, SC 132, 2, 27).

Now, one thing you need to know about Celsus: he was a heretic. He vehemently opposed the Christians and went out of his way to disparage them. Which means he is exactly the kind of person FAIR will quote in order to defend their beliefs--a known heretic! Way to go, guys! I suppose that next, in order to "prove" the Bible was wrong about the creation account, they will probably be quoting Charles Darwin.

Oh, and by the way, here is the full quote from Origen (emphasis mine):
After this he says, that certain of the Christian believers, like persons who in a fit of drunkenness lay violent hands upon themselves, have corrupted the Gospel from its original integrity, to a threefold, and fourfold, and many-fold degree, and have remodelled it, so that they might be able to answer objections. Now I know of no others who have altered the Gospel, save the followers of Marcion, and those of Valentinus, and, I think, also those of Lucian. But such an allegation is no charge against the Christian system, but against those who dared so to trifle with the Gospels. And as it is no ground of accusation against philosophy, that there exist Sophists, or Epicureans, or Peripatetics, or any others, whoever they may be, who hold false opinions; so neither is it against genuine Christianity that there are some who corrupt the Gospel histories, and who introduce heresies opposed to the meaning of the doctrine of Jesus.
I suppose that is enough evidence to shatter FAIR's misuse of someone's quote. And, yeah, there are going to be differences in the various Hebrew manuscripts. It would be interesting if FAIR would live up to their acronym and share with us some of these differences from Tov's book. Oh wait......are those crickets I hear chirping in Utah? Yeah, I thought so.

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So, for the second (Answer 26), let's boil it down. Let's look at the main thrust of their response:
The italics do indeed identify words added by the translators. They were "added" because they were necessary words for making sense of the translation: in Hebrew and Greek the words are sometimes implied, but necessary for English to make sense.
RED FLAG ALERT!
RED FLAG ALERT!


The Book of Mormon was not written in Hebrew, or Greek! IT WAS SUPPOSEDLY WRITTEN IN REFORMED EGYPTIAN! So the argument that the italics were added to the Hebrew for insertion into the BOM is silly, because Isaiah was written in Hebrew while the BOM was written in a totally different language! BUSTED!! That would be like saying "The parts of the Bagavad Gita that were plagiarized from Das Kapital kept the italics to get the sense of what the Japanese meant." We're talking about completely different languages, so their answer on this point is moot.

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Finally, Answer #27. I would have to say this isn't much of an issue. Of course the gold-digger was going to translate it into the language of his day, so I really don't think that's any ground we need to cover.

14 May 2009

50 Answers to 50 Mormon Answers to 50 Anti-Mormon Questions



Notice the little picture above. It is an Oriborus. I really think it symbolizes Mormon theology, because if you share the truth with a Mormon long enough, their theology will start to eat itself.

Tower To Truth Question:

24. If the Adam-God doctrine isn't true, how come D. & C. 27:11 calls Adam the Ancient of Days which is clearly a title for God in Daniel Chapter 7?

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FAIR Answer:

The real question should be how do LDS justify their interpretation of Ancient of Days as Adam. LDS are not dependent upon biblical interpretation for a complete understanding of the meaning of this or any other term. Since LDS have a more expanded idea of Adam's role, it is not surprising that they interpret some verses differently.

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism notes:
For Latter-day Saints, Adam stands as one of the noblest and greatest of all men. Information found in the scriptures and in declarations of latter-day apostles and prophets reveals details about Adam and his important roles in the pre-earth life, in Eden, in mortality, and in his postmortal life. They identify Adam by such names and titles as Michael (D&C 27:11; D&C 29:26), archangel (D&C 88:112), and Ancient of Days (D&C 138:38).

Joseph Smith is one source for this view of Adam:
"‘Ancient of Days’ appears to be his title because he is ‘the first and oldest of all.'"

The critics are also perhaps too confident in their ability to definitively interpret an isolated verse of scripture. This section of Daniel is written in Aramaic, while the rest of the Old Testament is in Hebrew. The phrase translated "Ancient of Days" (attiq yômîn) as one non-LDS source notes, "in reference to God...is unprecedented in the Hebrew texts." Thus, reading this phrase as referring to God (and, in the critics' reading, only God) relies on parallels from Canaanite myth and Baal imagery in, for example, the Ugaritic texts. Latter-day Saints are pleased to have a more expanded view through the addition of revelatory insights.

Like many other Christians, the LDS see many parallels between Christ (who is God) and Adam. Christ is even called, on occasion, the "second Adam." It is thus not surprising that D&C 27:11 associates Adam with a divine title or status when resurrected and exalted—after all, LDS theology anticipates human deification, so God and Adam are not seen as totally "other" or "different" from each other. LDS would have no problem, then, in seeing Adam granted a type of divine title or epithet—they do not see this as necessarily an either/or situation.

This does not mean, however, that Adam and God are the same being, merely that they can ultimately share the same divine nature. Such a reading would be strange to creedal Christians who see God as completely different from His creation. Once again, the theological preconceptions with which we approach the Biblical text affects how we read it.

To learn more:Adam wiki articles
To learn more:Ancient of Days

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My Response:

Now, wait a minute. I thought the Mormon church never taught Adam-God! OK, let's work through this one point at a time.
The critics are also perhaps too confident in their ability to definitively interpret an isolated verse of scripture. This section of Daniel is written in Aramaic, while the rest of the Old Testament is in Hebrew. The phrase translated "Ancient of Days" (attiq yômîn) as one non-LDS source notes, "in reference to God...is unprecedented in the Hebrew texts." Thus, reading this phrase as referring to God (and, in the critics' reading, only God) relies on parallels from Canaanite myth and Baal imagery in, for example, the Ugaritic texts.

Um...yeah. No kidding! Just like interpreting Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2 relies on interpreting history. The reference to Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible (the "one non-LDS souce." Why don't they ever tell you what the non-LDS sources are?) is another of those "skimming the surface" type answers FAIR likes to give. Here is the full entry:
Such a term in reference to God, presumably the referent here, is unprecedented in the Hebrew texts, although associations with Everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6 have been suggested. The most likely source of the imagery is Canaanite myth since El, the head of the heavenly pantheon, is referred to as the "Father of Years" and often portrayed on a throne with heavenly attendants. The association of El with age generally is also notabble in Canaanite mythology. The context of the phrase, occuring in proximity to "One like a son of man," which draws clearly on Baal imagery, further supports this association.

Unfortunately, FAIR gets caught up in the details, and gets distracted in trying to deal with Aramaic, so much so that they miss the clear words of the Scriptures.
Daniel 7:9-10--"I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire; a fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, and the books were opened."

Let's see. One sat on a throne. Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him, books were opened. These are some of the images we read about in Revelation referring to the Father and Christ. Then skip down to Daniel 7:13-14--
"I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed."

The Son of Man coming on the clouds of Heaven. To Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom. His is an everlasting kingdom. If FAIR can show how any of these things do not refer to the Father and the Son, please show me. Next!
Like many other Christians, the LDS see many parallels between Christ (who is God) and Adam. Christ is even called, on occasion, the "second Adam." It is thus not surprising that D&C 27:11 associates Adam with a divine title or status when resurrected and exalted—after all, LDS theology anticipates human deification, so God and Adam are not seen as totally "other" or "different" from each other. LDS would have no problem, then, in seeing Adam granted a type of divine title or epithet—they do not see this as necessarily an either/or situation.

LDS theology anticipates human deification? Really? Try getting a Mormon to tell you that! Well, it is surprising that the D&C gives a divine title to Adam, since none is ever given to him in the Bible. And basically, FAIR is saying here that Adam is like God. Look at what they said: "God and Adam are not seen as "different" from each other." Now, I may not always be the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but I do know a thing or two about the English language (although I have never studied Reformed Egyptian). If two things are not "different" from one another, does that not, by default, mean that they are "the same"? So, are they not saying that Adam is LIKE GOD?

So, in a nutshel, since I'm sure by now you feel like something that rhymes with "Tetzel," is FAIR's answer to this question...........................yeah, I'm trying to figure it out, too. Once again, they don't answer the question. They do a little song-and-dance, change the subject, and leave the reader confused enough to believe they know something more than they really do.